What do you think about the tonebase Practice Plans?

Alexander  Hello, Very good comments.

Did you check the tonebase level system in the forum

https://guitar-community.tonebase.co/t/83ht76q/level-1-list-of-pieces-discussion-space

This may answer some of your questions

Best regards

Andre Bernier Hi, yes I did at the beginning when I just signed in to ToneBase, but again, they are a set of recommendations you can do on that level, but not a complete course that guides you from beginning to end, progressively. For me, it has been like a puzzle, you find pieces all over the place and have to put them together and figure out where each piece fits.

Alexander 

Well, I am not sure you looked deep enough.

Just take level 1-

• Watch the intro video of Mircea
• Read the ''What to expect and description section'' - This is what you will work on and learn
• Look at the list of recommended courses:

There is a course on reading scores. Well done, good workbook to consult in the future and definitively useful  to progress in the future

A course Part 1 - by Daniel De Arakal - well structured course that will walk you through the basics of classical guitar and covering the techniques and skills you will work on level 1-2 and 3 (this is why this course repeats on these other levels). The course include a final piece of repertoire ''Andantino in C Major - Matteo Carcassi''

Finally one repertoire piece from Gulli Bjornsson .

Now, take level 2-

Again you have the ''What to expect'' the ''Description'' and the ''Skills covered'' sections that are self explanatory.

In the list of recommended courses,

There are the repeats for Music reading course and the Beginning guitar course.

There are few ''Etude'', ''Estudio'' or ''Studies'' that are specific pieces composed with the goal to practice specific techniques. For example, the Pujol Etude no1. is for practicing i,m rest strokes and left hand fingering in first and second position.

And there is also a set of several pieces to learn from Carulli, Bjornsson and Assad.

For sure when we just look at the title it may be difficult to know what it is. Well just click on the title. This will bring you to the course, you can watch the intro video, see the syllabus and download the workbook. Then you will have a better idea of how to proceed with the course.

I could go through more levels but I think I made my point. Just take the time to look more in detail and you will discover its value. Not perfect but quite good.

You can also certainly add to that program (this is what I am doing) from the tonebase library using their research tool. This is where the new ''Practice plan tool'' can be useful. 

Anyway, I am done. Good luck in your journey

You really elaborated well on things I couldn't express myself. I subscribed to TB, having read some reviews that said that it's a really good site for intermediate/advanced players but perhaps a bit complicated for beginners.

For me as a beginner, this site has been enormously helpful as I've improved by leaps and bounds with the basic techniques. However, I think I've plateaued in my progression and I'm not really sure if I'm doing some of the things the right way technically to progress further. 

There are videos aimed at tackling different technical as well as musical aspects. But if feasible, I think having an option of a more structured syllabus, similar to a course or a diploma would be great. This will help us get a sense of routine and direction, especially for people like me who don't have a qualified teacher/guide.

I'm aware that TB does not offer degrees or certificates but there could be some sort of a course having a tier/level system with some built-in mechanism for grading ourselves. For eg., Tier 1 could have a syllabus like

- Basics of LH, RH techniques,

- warm-up routines

- exercises like scales, arpeggios

- introduction to a few etudes

- introduction to music theory etc

I think there are lessons addressing these things but they could be better organised.

Finally, the TB player is not very user friendly, especially the app. It's a bit sluggish. Perhaps, it has more to do with my slow internet as its horrible where I live. But could you provide an option of downloading videos within the app without the danger of them leaking out from the site. That would be greatly helpful.

Andre Bernier Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I understand that there is enough content at ToneBase to cover everything a beginner needs to learn, but the major problem remains that it is not a structured course that builds "progressively" on each lesson. I keep emphasizing the word "progressively" because right now they are all disconnected lessons that although they are all at the same level, don't give you a path to follow and build on the knowledge of the previous lesson. So for example:

• You end up in a lesson and they say now we are going to play a "minor scale", and you wonder what makes a scale minor? And although you may have heard the word scale before you wonder what exactly is a scale? ToneBase doesn't have music theory lessons or courses, but beginner lessons already seem to expect you to know that. 
• So you go outside TB to learn what a minor scale is and it turns out that is a scale that has a minor third interval. And for that matter, what is an interval?
• So you go into another lesson and they say you need to know arpeggios, and what are those? How they are different from Chords & Scales?
• And many lessons expect you to know the fretboard, but there is no lesson at TB to learn that.

 So what I'm trying to say is that there are a lot of things we need to learn pretty much at the same time, but because the lessons are not structured in a course, there is no path to follow and we end up like trying to put together a puzzle with information that we need to find somewhere else. All these concepts & techniques tend to put a stop to our learning, especially when we cannot find how to learn them at TB and we are forced to do our own research, this can be a frustrating experience.

Even the levels are organized in Alphabetical order,  instead of the best order to learn the skills we need. It doesn't help that the lessons use names like "Carulli's Andantino Op. 241 No. 19", now that I'm more experienced I can tell that is a lesson to learn arpeggios, but I couldn't figure out that as a beginner just from that name, and what does "Pujol's Etude no. 1" teaches you? You cannot tell by the title alone.

But there definitely an order to learn things, to learn arpeggios, you first need to learn Free Stroke and how to use the Right Hand Thumb, and personally I think is easier to learn Free Stroke if you learn Rest Stroke first. And if you understand how the Diatonic Scale is created, you can understand how other scales derive from there and how they create patterns on the guitar to understand how to fretboard is organized; you also understand how Chords are created and then is easier to create fingerings for the notes you are reading.

Perhaps there is a way to place all ToneBase lessons in a "playlist" order to make them more progressive, but that will be no substitution for having some of the teachers come together and create a consensus of all the skills that you need to know first as a beginner. Just how much music theory, music reading, and which techniques do you need to start? How fast do your rest stroke & arpeggios need to be in order to move to level 2?

At least at the beginning, the teachers should be the ones that create a path for the student to follow with clear goals to accomplish. Currently, is up to the student to create their own path, which is a daunting task for the one who knows nothing.

If you were going to ask me how I put together my puzzle for this first year I would have to post a lot of links outside of TB, there is a lot of information you need to know before you come to TB in order to take full advantage of what the library can offer. Let me know if ok to do that I can share how I wish somebody taught me the guitar in this first year.

Nijwm Bwiswmuthiary yes, I completely agree!

Alexander While I think your observations are correct, I don't think ToneBase was ever intended to be a substitute for a traditional introduction to playing the guitar. I think it is primarily aimed at experienced musicians who wish to take their playing to the 'next level'. One needs only consider the choice of repertoire that is covered in the video lessons: it consists mostly of well-known concert pieces that no beginner would be capable of playing. As a matter of fact, most non-professionals will have a very tough time with many of the pieces, from Assad's 'Aquarelle' to the Walton 'Bagatelles'. Only a handful of the pieces are appropriate for relative (but not absolute) beginners. Even intermediate level players are not particularly well served here. My own suggestion for inexperienced players is that they use as their primary learning guide one of the many 'method' books that have been published over the years, and use ToneBase as a kind of supplement. And I wouldn't hesitate to find a good teacher: if for no other reason than to provide the kind of guidance that is lacking here.

David Krupka I think you are right, and I was indeed warned that TB was intended for intermediate to advanced players by the websites that recommended TB.

I did as you said, I'm currently using other platforms, websites & resources that are better suited for my level and expect to come back here once I'm more comfortable with how everything is structured here. It's not like I'm disappointed, because one day I want to be able to play music like La Catedral & Asturias myself. I just overestimated the gap between beginner & intermediate and signed up a couple of years too early, lol.

But regarding the question "What do you think about the tonebase Practice Plans?" I think ToneBase can definitely acquire more market share if they aim their platform to be more inclusive of beginners. At least ordering their level system in the recommended order to learn the pieces/lessons will be an improvement over the Alphabetical order it currently has.

Regarding Teachers, several years ago I tried to learn from teachers but found out that:

• Great musicians do not always make great teachers. Teaching requires a different set of skills.
• It's difficult for me to open my schedule for the lessons, and frustrating when the teacher comes 20 minutes late or completely forgets that they had a lesson with me that day. Many musicians are not the best at being punctual.
• The location also plays a role, now that I live in rural midwest USA I can find plenty of teachers for Country Guitar and some for Rock, but for Classical & Flamenco guitar are non-existent.
• None of my previous teachers mentioned a method or gave me everything that I needed to learn the guitar basics correctly. All of them only asked me for the songs that I wanted to play and gave me exercises to follow. They seem to create them on the fly rather than have a structure.

Is for those reasons that I put my guitar in a case for almost a decade, until somebody told me about ToneBase.

I have to say that even with how difficult it has been to put together this puzzle, I have learned way more than when I only had one teacher for 1 hour a week. The ability to take multiple lessons with multiple teachers, the ability to slow down or fast forward and repeat the videos as much as you need, and to be able to do it at 4am if you want to, or any time your schedule opens up; is something that I value and that has allowed me to progress further than I ever could with the guitar.

Perhaps the level of detail that I wish I had at the beginning of my music journey is something that can only happen at the University or Conservatory level, but it will be nice if ToneBase tries to create a path from beginner to advanced in the future.

Alexander I certainly agree that ToneBase would be well advised to target a broader audience if they want to thrive (or even survive) in a difficult market. They need to design a pedagogy that works from the ground up.

You make some interesting points about teachers, and I do think adult learners can manage without them. (But if in your experience not one of them suggested a general method book as a starting point, I think you were finding the wrong teachers!) Personally, I would recommend the famous 'Methode complete pour la guitar' by Matteo Carcassi, published nearly two centuries ago, but still relevant, and freely available: https://vmirror.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usimg/9/92/IMSLP34490-PMLP77530-boije-1129.pdf

Carcassi's book covers most of basic guitar technique, and contains enough material for several years of study. There other possibilities for those who prefer something more recent. Aaron Shearer's 'Basic Guitar Technique' was standard when I was learning, but it doesn't go beyond a beginner's level. Julio Sagreras's six volumes of 'Las lecciones de guitarra' contains a wealth of  graded exercises (from absolute beginner to virtuoso) but little useful guidance on how to play them. There are also many new publications (check out what is available at 'Les Productions d'Oz' for example) but I am not personally familiar with these.

https://pdfcoffee.com/classic-guitar-technique-book-1-aaron-shearer-pdf-free.html

https://imslp.org/wiki/Las_lecciones_de_guitarra_(Sagreras%2C_Julio_Salvador)

https://productionsdoz.com/en/home

David Krupka yes, that's another good point about teachers, you can only know when you try them and sometimes you end up spending a few lessons just to determine you are not learning enough from them. And you end up spending $60-$80 each lesson, and that was about 10 years ago, I'm not sure how much lessons are now, but that was as much as I could afford back then, which was an extra $240-$320 a month. It is hard to find the right person when you don't know many people involved in music, I'm the only one in all my family and friends who has a passion and willingness to learn an instrument.

ToneBase is much more affordable than that. That is what granted me the ability to restart my journey with the guitar.

Thank you for your recommendations, I'll incorporate Carassi's and the other books into my path, especially if it can help me clarify the order to learn the guitar. 

Currently, I'm pretty advanced with the theory and can already play the basic techniques, although not at a very fast speed. I'm also more comfortable with reading music.

I'm using:

• Kitharologus to develop skill, which was recommended by many teachers here at TB.
• as well as Pumping Nylon
• The Vault by Douglas Niedt has become my go-to, every time someone mentions a technique I don't know. It lacks structure as a course, but you can find incredibly detailed lessons for each topic he has. It has an excellent series for Tone Production/Quality that really explains how to accomplish this and has become part of my warmup routine. Honestly, if I were ToneBase I would ask Douglas to incorporate some of his lessons to fill the beginners' gap.
• Douglas's website is also the one that taught me how to learn the fretboard, something easy to do when it's explained this well. And that was supplemented by Fretjam's Fretboard Lessons, which is also a great website for learning the music theory for the guitar.
• I also use TrueFire,  which has beginner courses at the level I was at when I began last year, and once I finish those courses I expect to come back here since I think it will be enough to be able to take full advantage of ToneBase. Their focus is on the electric & acoustic guitars and they do have learning paths like the ones we are asking ToneBase to create (but there is no learning path for classical guitar, TB should be the first to create that since classical guitar is the focus of the whole site).

Putting together this puzzle and deciding how much time to dedicate to theory, reading, technique exercises, and songs; has taken a considerable amount of my time that I could not use to practice last year. But you do what you have to in order to learn and everything becomes easier over time if you can persist. Hopefully, I'll rejoin the community at ToneBase soon.

Alexander You're certainly availing yourself of a wealth of material! I'm familiar with some of it ('Pumping Nylon' is a modern classic!) and I make use of TrueFire myself, though mostly for jazz and certain popular styles of playing. I've heard of Douglas Niedt but have never explored his 'Vault' - it certainly appears to be comprehensive. In the past, I had a look at 'Kitharlogos' but came to the conclusion that most guitarists (well, myself at least) have no need to develop their technical skills to that extent. Actually, I'm not a great fan of technical exercises in general, although they can't be altogether avoided. But as much as possible, I think one should be playing actual music, even if it's just modest little pieces. That's one thing that seems to be missing at ToneBase: there's almost no repertoire here suitable for the complete novice. But such music exists - in fact hundreds if not thousands of such pieces are available to the learner. One multi-volume source of carefully graded material is available at the Delcamp website. (Volume one is suitable for the absolute beginner.) If you're been mostly working on theory and technique, I would shift your focus to learning actual music. In the early stages, I don''t think it's necessary to play things 'perfectly'; it's much better to expose yourself to as much material as possible. It's very useful to develop fluency in reading: playing 'at sight' is something many guitarists neglect, but it is a skill that makes learning far easier, and far more enjoyable.

Thank you so much David Krupka !

Delcamp site seems such a great resource with everything organized by level. This will save me lots of time so I can use it to practice instead of planning and I see they also have lessons & different methods too. I wonder how Delcamp levels compare to ToneBase levels?

The exercises I did last year have helped me free my eyes, so I can read the score rather than look at what I'm doing with the guitar. The way I see it, you can get good at playing something like football just by playing, but if you go to the gym to build your muscles and practice to improve the motion of your plays, then you get better faster. It takes some time for your brain to make new connections and internalize what you are learning, and these exercises with repeating motions help you do exactly that.

But now it's time, as you said to start playing some songs and finally get the reward for my efforts!

Alexander The Decamp levels look roughly comparable to those on ToneBase. Remember, though, that assigning a particular piece to a particular level is at best an approximation of a piece's difficulty. And different players - even experienced ones - will almost certainly have different notions of what is difficult, in part because we all have our own strengths and weaknesses. Personally, I categorize pieces into one of four groups: those I can play at sight; those I can learn within a few days; those I can learn, but only with some effort; and those that are beyond my current technical capacity. To me, it doesn't make much sense to think in terms of 'levels', although this may be useful when one is starting out.

Categorization of material into different levels can also be found in various the syllabi of certain well-established music conservatories, including the RCM in Canada and the ABRSM in England.

Your football analogy is interesting. I would note, though, that one important skill in team sports is the ability to 'read the field' - and that is something that will never be acquired in the gym. One needs to experience the actual game. Likewise, one doesn't learn how to express oneself musically by practicing the basic elements of technique on their own. You have to be playing actual music. That is why I believe technique is best learned through the use of musical exercises, in particular the genre known as the 'study'. But I suspect this is a minority opinion!

Thank you David Krupka , I appreciate you taking the time to guide me, those are very useful resources that will give me a path to follow.

I also noticed that ToneBase finally allows us to filter the lessons by every single level (instead of "Intermediate, Advance & All Levels" as it was before). I'm sure that will also help beginners like me to have an easier time choosing what to learn next.

Tom Misseldine Hi Tom. I think what you are proposing is an excellent idea! It would be great if ToneBase were to facilitate this, but it is quite possible to initiate it independently. (Actually, this is what you've already done!) As you may know, you can contact other members privately through the 'Message' function - there's no need to share personal contact information in the public forum. I take it what you have in mind is an informal meeting in an online chatroom (Zoom/FaceBook/GoogleMeet) where members could play for one another and engage in discussion. I imagine at least a few people here would be interested. (Show of hands, please, fellow Tonebuddies!)