GENERAL DISCUSSION on the Variation Challenge "Marizápalos"
This is the place for general discussions which don't fit in the main thread or the byweekly updates thread 
- Perhaps you have a guitar question inspired by the challenge?
- Want to chat about general topics of early music like ornamentation, harmonic etc.?
- Or just looking to chat with fellow challenge participants about music?
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- Yates says this is a "cancion bailable" associated with the theatre and a baile not a danza (P44-46).
- There is some history on Marizápalos, identifying it is a romanza here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar%C3%ADa_Calder%C3%B3n
- The lyrics for the romanza are: https://www.google.com/search?q=marizapalos+lyrics
- A performance of the sung romanza can be viewed here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKBngq7WRK0 and if you press "Show More" beneath the video you can see a translation of the lyrics.
- We all know what "...making bad use of their latin" must mean, but how?
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martin and, on sources for the lyrics.... http://asodat.uv.es/dramaturgos/preview/186
and
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Peter que bien. ¡ Muchas gracias!
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Peter baile and danza are we can say the same thing...
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joosje great video for the strumming!!!
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Peter how good!!! thank you!!
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I am still not convinced we can’t use cross string trills. David Russell uses them almost exclusively and so does Scott Tenant on his Mysterious Barricades CD.
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Debbie I will add some cross trills in the next live stream! Generally, cross trills are something that I reserve for keyboard arrangements (Mysterious Barricades by Couperin is written for harpsichord as well).
But of course: a piano will never be able to do a trill on one string, the instrument is simply not build for that! But that doesn't mean that pianists are not allowed to trill when they transcribe this kind of music, they simply need to find a way to find something that still sounds somewhat idiomatic!By the way, when I play BWV 997, I do add cross trills (as the original seems to be written for the Lautenklavier) but I read from the contemporary lute transcription which interprets some of the slurs as notes played over two strings. Here's the link to the lute transcription of BWV997, its incredible fascinating when you play this piece!
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This is about the last section. Imo there is a mistake in the score: bar 164-165 should be one bar, with same rhythmic pattern as next bar At least, that’s what I think the manuscript gives. The sign for the sixteenth notes is not very clear, but these notes are all marked in one bar. And it makes sense in context.
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joosje I 100% agree with you ! In Lindbergs recording at 4:08 we can also hear it !
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Hi everyone,
I am thinking about the fact, that in bar 150 and 154, in Tabulature and Notation, a "g" is wanted
. "That g hurts my ears - I want to hear a Fis (f-sharp)
What about the following Idea ?
In renaissance-Lute-Notation the third string is always tuned to "Fis(f-sharp)".
Now we don't know who made this Manuskript ?
If this guy was in hurry and thinking on Lute-Tabulature, he could make these notation-mistakes ?
Playing an "o" on a Lutes third string will produce a great "Fis(f-sharp)"
I am 100% shure - the Manuskript is not correct - I will not play this hurting "g" anymore.
What do you think about this Theory ?
Best Regards
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Olli wow Ollie you are too fast!
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Olli good thinking! But don’t know about the Fis-stringtheory
, do you repeat Fis?I do agree, this G disturbed me also, especially bar 150, I’d expect Gis as transition to A. Like in al related passages in the piece. What’s disturbing me a little with all these long ringing open 5th string A notes: too much harmony, leaving less room for (subtleties in) melodic variation. I haven’t decided yet … -
Olli joosje hmm, the theory is not working - because it‘s not the „f-sharp“ i want. I want the „g-sharp“
. Don‘t know why my brain played that joke on me yesterday. I am sorry....Maybe it‘s really time to go outside an ride my bicycle instead of practicing much too much...
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Olli yeah, I also need a break
Have a good ride... 
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I found a few more YouTubes
Ensemble Iberia (what a voice). I love the build up of tension
Natasha Cabezas. I love her quiet virtuosity and the tempo rubato
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The g Sharp and g natural alternate throughout the piece as the keys modulate. 133-144 E to A to D to G to B to Am. Keeps changing after as well.
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Norman yes, but it is different in these bars, because of the musical line in which it occurs. I think phrasing could be a solution.
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joosje
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Norman very important, yes! It always depends on which function the G has in every chord! We modify the G into a G# it's usually in order to create a subsemitonium modi towards a minor (or F major in the case of a deceptive cadence).
I consider talking about a subsemitonium modi to be a real ice breaker at parties
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martin at a party of theory nerds you’d be the star. But it seems in this piece it’s appearing where the chord is E major, the V chord of the Am.
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@Emma Baile and danza are close, but not the same. Today, baile is used in the flamenco world to refer to flamenco dance while danza is used to refer to ballet, etc. The roots of this seem to go back to the baroque as explained here:
So Irish step dancing is a danza while flamenco is a baile in the baroque sense. It does not seem a great distinction to us today, but remember that the Zarabanda was considered lascivious and banned by the Church around 1583. I wonder if this is the distinction that the church was using to ban certain dances?
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Peter
(Spanish speakers) usually use "danza" as the art, something with more structure and even more formal.
While "baile" is way more informal and it is the one we use as a verb. We usually don't say "Estoy danzando", we say "Estoy bailando".
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joosje Cool, thanks for your insight! And thanks Peter for the research, I would really like to see the whole article but unfortunately I don't have access!
However, given the information I'd really like to take a closer look at de Murcia's Marizápalos in g-minor which isarguably the best composition in this publication
according to the article you've linked!
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Martin, I hate the unnatural fingering from bars 163 on. I played it as written and as I would without the fingering and I don’t see an advantage to the fingering as written. I hope you will explain this.
