David Krupka Hi, David! glad you enjoyed it too! Regarding the background culture theory you bring up I'd say it could make a lot of sence regarding my way of discussing music, teaching and many other things. Specifically regarding Classical period musical interpretation I'd say all my roots are anything but Latinamerican. All of my info and background comes from 1950's Vienna (where my mother studied -and she was studymates with Martha Argerich) and german and russian music pedagogues/players migrated to Argentina around those years. That's the beauty of transculturation. I feel more at home listening to Bach, Mozart, Ravel and Shostakovic than listening to Piazzolla or Yupanqui.  And somehow I also doubt a little, for the same reason, of your evaluation of US culture. I have listened to tons of very skilled deep interpretations of Mozart by lots of US's players. I have the feeling this matter is something related specifically to guitar players. Anyways, no reason why we can't try to move outside of our confort "cultured" zone. I promise I'll listen to more of Kleemola's Sor! Thanks for your kind response and interesting points!

Ariel Elijovich Hi Ariel, It looks like this video is no longer available. (And I don't have Facebook so I can't access your previous posting.) These have been interesting discussions though,

Jack Stewart Hi, Jack! thanks for the heads up!! it should be fixed now. Give it a try and let me know. I had uploaded the video to Nuntempe's channel by mistake and it seems that some of my partners from que quartet changed the settings...

https://youtu.be/ThgJkG9tfsc

Ariel Elijovich Ah it's back! (Perhaps the problem was on my end).  I do prefer your fingering as it gives greater depth to the sound. Open strings can be problematic, ie; being a bit more strident in contrast to those notes played further up the neck (certainly in my playing). Though I also tend to prefer (generally) campanella style which does use open strings more. So much for my consistency.🤔

Jack Stewart Eric PhillipsDavid KrupkaRon here's the second version that i mentioned before. A little faster andante, sort of a Andante giocoso in 2/2, with even more articulations and some changes in small details of the fingerings to render it more staccato. 

https://youtube.com/shorts/jlcnJuvSuJ0?si=aaz49SIbX3LqG5Ln

which do you like more? The slower or faster version? 

Sorry for the stops and repeats... I literally did this in 3 minutes... 

Jack Stewart good to hear it's solved! thanks! open strings are problematic indeed. Though many players would say that for the Baroque and Classic period is the correct fingering because it's the fingering that would be used then. I think that the fact that string were made of gut also made for softer more expressive open strings maybe? Campanella is great because it's the only actual way to play real legato in the guitar. In this las video, for example I play a C in second string and a B in third string for the end of the middle section because even if it's really much more difficult, it's the only way to do legato between those two notes...    

Ariel Elijovich A very interesting interpretation, Ariel. My first impression was that this is far too fast, but on repeated listenings I find it works very well! In some respects, it's easier to 'understand' the structure of the music at the faster tempo. (And the implicitly 'giocoso' nature of the piece - something I quite like, even if the composer didn't intend it) really emerges here!) Perhaps your two approaches could be characterized as a 'classical' sensibility (present version) versus a 'romantic' one (first version). I find both work, and maybe that makes sense for Sor, whose lifespan traversed those two stylistic eras. On a related point, what I really like is your willingness to explore a variety of possibilities. Too many modern performances are too carefully planned for my taste. (A little forte here, a little rubato there, and nothing that wasn't rehearsed a hundred times in the practice room!) I love the idea of experimentation and spontaneity in music. I wish there was more of it. And so I suppose I can't really say which version I like better - I like them both.

David Krupka Hi again, David! And again, many interesting points you bring to the table... while I do know the tempo is fast (i mentioned in my post earlier that this "second" version would be much faster than others) I guess it's also my fault that you felt it so fast because I should have studied it more so that there wasn't that characteristic feeling that the piece is escaping out of my absolute control (which was the case in many points). My bad! but i wanted to share with you and had that time while my kids where distracted... (that noise you can hear in the middle is my youngest, who was playing next to me). 

Also about tempo,... it's so difficult to play in the guitar at the same tempo one would sing... that's something I always find strange. When I sing stuff I always sing much faster than it's "natural" to play. When I find myself trying to advance my playing tempi to my ideal singing tempi I always find myself cursing against the guitar... funny instrument that it is!! 😂

I think both versions go well with the classical sensibility, though different characters are portrayed. Any rubato on the first version is just lack of study. But i never intended romanticism. At least not in a post Beethovenian way...

On my willingness to explore possibilities, well thank you! I dare say, you credit me with too much. My intention here was to present to you a couple of options to the traditional way this study is performed. Specially to offer an optional view about fingering and its very important consecuences in phrasing and articulation. But when I actually study a piece to perform it, I usually hear it in my head with a very distintive clarity as towards what it should sound. Many times things happen in the way but mostly I have a complete version of the piece even before I start playing. So, that would be the opposite of what you credit me with... funny too.

But seriuosly, It's true that when I decide something I always try it at least once the exact opposite way. And I never "get married to anything" until I'm completely convinced with it's result. I feel there are two types of players: those who have a fixed platonic version and try to make it as close to the ideal as possible everytime and those that go with the flow of the moment and have a different version everyday. In piano, Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli would be the first and Martha Argerich the second, for example. I tend to identify myself mostly with the first type.   

I know a colleague of mine, great teacher in the Conservatory here in Bs.As. and wonderful performer and composer, Javier Bravo, that over the score sticks 4 tracing papers and in each a new different fingering for each passage. A nice practice to follow!!

see you all around and congrats to everybody on your studies!! I have not had time to comment but I'm trying to follow on everybody's work!!  

Ariel Elijovich I think your approach is a good exercise in learning the fretboard. Learning different shapes and fingerings across the neck is an indispensable tool. This can also be a good exercise for the left hand shifting and eliminating squeaks and unwanted string noise. But with the latter, we already have a myriad of studies for that. So overall, I think it’s an interesting exercise but not necessarily an approach for reinterpreting the piece for performance. 

Debbie Hi, Debby! congrats on your Op.6n11. It is coming along very nicely! You are using "a" finger for the melodie, right? So you are changing Sor's historical fingerings, too! Btw, one thing I'd like to state for clearence: this is not a reinterpretation of Sor's music. This is how I feel it actually should sound like, based on all the literature for all the other instruments performing music from the classical-early romantic period.   

Ariel Elijovich Just a note about the use of the 'a' finger in the early 19th century. As you mention, Sor argued against it (except, as far as I know in special cases, such as sounding a four-voice chord). But some other guitarists of the period - I'm thinking of Giuliani in particular - were almost certainly employing three fingers plus thumb. So it becomes a question of how 'correctly' we wish to play - does it extend to adopting the technique of each particular composer, as appropriate for the piece being performed? I don't think any modern practitioner of 'historical technique' goes this far. In fact, the whole notion of 'historical technique' is in many respects a modern construction. Indeed, the idea of a single standardized technique was probably unknown in the past. (Just as, in the rock music world today, there is no single 'correct' way to play the electric guitar. Everyone does it their own way, more or less.) Returning to Sor, I have the impression that his views on technique were conservative, in the sense that they were based on older playing traditions that had largely been abandoned outside of Spain, where he had been trained. (This is a guess on my part - I don't know nearly enough of the actual history to assert anything.) In any event, his technique certainly resembles the lute technique of a much earlier era. As it happens, I use a similar approach to the right hand myself, mostly because I do play lute as well as guitar. But there is one thing I do quite differently, and it was your comment on the 'a' finger that made me want to comment here. (Btw, I'm not arguing against anything you said, just (hopefully) contributing to the discussion.) Where Sor uses 'p', 'i', and 'm';, I use 'p', 'i', and 'a'. I rarely use my 'm' finger. Even in the days when I played with a standard modern guitar technique, I always favoured 'I' and 'a' for scale passages. Perhaps it's something to do with the shape of my particular hand. Anyhow, that's my story - sorry if it doesn't seem to be making any particular point.

Ariel Elijovich Hi Ariel. Thanks for your kind words about 6/11. As far as the other subject, using the a finger changes technique but rewriting Sor’s left-hand positions can change the sonority, voicing, and register of the composition itself. I don’t think these are equivalent kinds of alteration. Sor’s own method, Méthode pour la Guitare (1830) shows that his left-hand fingering is derived from harmonic and voice-leading principles, not just convenience. He explicitly says his fingering depends on thirds and sixths, and that proper fingering should reveal the regular movement of the bass and harmony. So changing left-hand voicings or positions can alter the musical structure he intended, not just the mechanics of playing it. Also he didn’t forbid the use of the a finger he just thought of it as a weak finger so discouraged its use. But comparing that to changing left hand positions is a false equivalence. At the end of the day, it’s an entertaining discussion. I’d love to hear what Steve Goss or Brian Jeffries would say about.